The myth of grouping being dead
After my longwinded comments on Psychochilds post “Punishing Grouping” I realized I should (wo)man up and say what I meant here, possibly in a more coherent way. Reading a bit around on blogs discussing this such as Wolfshead talking about the glorydays of EQ2, Stylish Corpse on why soloing is not to be frowned upon- I do sense a common goal: We all want group play to be fun and rewarding.
However, along the way alot of presumtions are made, presumptions that is steering the discussion a bit of track. Some I have identified are:
- That grouping happens less today then in earlier MMOs
- That grouping in itself enhances gameplay
- That all is needed is better game design
So, lets debunk them one at the time. Or atleast poke them a bit.
- Grouping is still prevolent in MMOs, however what the groups are for, what kind of interaction is between players when grouping, how long they last etc might not be the same as earlier. The real problem with grouping today seems to rather be that it doesnt fit with the idea of what grouping should be. Or, the many ideas of what grouping is about. It is clear that we are not even talking about the same kind of grouping. Some seem to talk about the decline in grouping as a lack of interaction between random players in the world (aka a lack of easy-to-get-and-enjoyable-PuGs), while others talk about lack of incentives for friends to play together. Even though they are both related to grouping, they might not be caused by the same problem. We no longer warmly greet anyone we come across online (which to be fair was quite normal in the early days of MMOs about 10 years ago), possibly cause we have been told that strangers on the internet are pedophiles and massmurderers. In such, the issues of PuGs might not be solely due to game design, but actually a change in how we conduct ourselves while online. Furhter more, they might have very different solutions. What supports grouping between friends might be at odds with features supporting PuGs. So, what kind of grouping is it we really want more of?
- Some enjoy soloing, some enjoy grouping. Grouping in it self isnt something that makes a game better, or an encouter more enjoyable. For grouping to have that effect you must like grouping, have a group you want to play with and a challenge that is good to solve as a group. In many ways, good group play is at odds with solo play due to the complexity that is needed for a challenge to be posed to a group. The easy solution is to make games for solo players and games for group players, however that makes noone happy. Solo players like the persistance of MMOs and group players often want to be able to do things on their own. I believe the solution lies in dynamic content, that content will adapt/or can be changed depending on you beeing alone or in a group.
- Users dont always do what the designers intend them to do. This seems to go double for gamers
We find alternate goals, we try things just to see what makes it tick, we try to break the rules. A good design alone wont change how grouping works, it needs to work in tandem with players appreciating this feature and giving it positive meaning. To take one example: The LFG tool in WoW. Its a welldesigned tool. You can set up which dungeon you want to go to, and you can even mark what role you will have (healer, tank, dps). However, many groups are still beeing formed through public channels like they used to before the LFG tool. The idea of the LFG tool was great, however in practice the users didnt use it as the designers intended- and we now see it as a underwhelming feature. In the same vein, a good design idea for how to get players to group – might not actually get them to group.
What i may add is that in case of Wow at least its pretty simple,Since the game has been around for more than 3-4 years now its old “vanilla” still active players feel that they pretty much owned the game that they know the game and everything that goes with it.Since early on or mid of Tbc(Expansion) WoW became overpopulated and flooded with new players.Pugging became less enjoyable due to new and not so good players yet that had to learn through time and mistakes,in addition old players didn’t seem to like it causing group disbanding and many more like flaming,ingoring etc.Now all this created a gap between new and old players “pro” and noobs” Original noobs aware of the situation refuced to accept that they still had way to go and in cases of mistakes a great majority claimed to be the ones with no mistakes and old players flamed even more,all this came to an era of mixing of all type of players that experienced or not pretty much everyone claimed to be the “pro’s” the ones the rest should follow,Through my eyes game became chaotic and less enjoying/colourfull pugs are something everyone are trying to avoid and even strong in game bonds are now broken becouse of this chaos even.When i tried Conan i saw the wow of pre tbc everyone helping each other pugging was fun and full of new persons that wanted to just play/socialize and was quite something,yes they majority was wow players that met the chaos and the change even to themselfs but it seemed that at least for early conan they remembered mmo is meant to have fun and not a chat war zone.
Hey Dark, nice to see you reading my blog.
I think you are pointing to another important factor, that I foolishly enough didnt bring up in my OP: That the players are not the same.
The MMO playerbase have matured (for lack of a better word, some will say it has gotten more infantile) and is more experienced. This means that a) They expect more from their games and b) They expect more from other players
AoC is a good example of that. It was a pretty good game, but it wasnt good enough. Why? Cause most players had seen better implementation of similar features in other games. They demanded to have those features in AoC too, cause they saw it as vital to their game experience. I was reading the AoC forums quite alot at the time and there was lots of complaints regarding problems with tradeskills, lacking economy, lack of end game content, problem with scaling armor etc. They werent asking for something new and different, they were asking for the things that for them were the hallmarks of MMOs. The playerbase wasnt going to spend their time on a game they felt were substandard, when they knew from other games how it could work.
New games are not given a grace period anymore where people just go around saying “oh, this is new and fun, i am sure they will get to the problems eventually”. New games have to deliver it all from day one if they want to get a foot in and keep its players. In relation to making gamedesigns that support grouping, this is ofcourse a huge challenge. Cause even if you are able to make a game with amazing features that support solo as well as group play (no idea how, but let just presume it happens) – if other parts of the game are lacking, you will have another flop on your hands.
As you were saying, we also have different expectations of other players. Its a very important point, but wont go too much into it now – still getting my head around how players go from noob to pro and what it has to say for playstyle. Might have some answers later though:)
Because our on-line experiences appear to be different, I have a slightly different take on grouping in-game. For starters, my MMO experience is limited to WoW. WoW was my first (and, so far, only) MMO. I began playing WoW in March of 2005 on a PVE server at the invitation of a cousin. In short, my initial interest in the game was socially motivated; and, no matter how involved in the game I become, my interest in the game is strongly influenced by social matters.
I loathe PUGs because my interaction with strangers is going to be limited to the social tools provided by WoW. Yes. There are all the usual gripes about PUGs (don’t want to wipe due to nubs, don’t want to be told what to do by a know-it-all 16 year old, etc.); but, for me, the overriding “problem” with PUGs is that I am not gaming with my friends. Specifically, gaming with my friends in Vent. Good voice chat is critical for those of us for whom texting is a relative novelty belonging to a younger generation; and very few PUGs use WoW’s voice chat feature. Thus hanging with friends and effective communication only exist on our guild’s (or allied guilds’) vent server.
So. Am I grouped when in-game? Almost all the time. The sort of exclusivity associated with my grouping seems to be in agreement with a part of your analysis in point #1. I prefer to group with RL friends and family. Absent that, I group in-guild. Absent that, I group with allied guilds. Am I available to group with strangers? Almost never. Were it not for daily dungeon quests, never.
Which brings me to your second point. I regard “in the same Vent channel” as grouping. In-game, I may or may not be engaged in the same quest or in the same dungeon as the other folk I’m in Vent with. It goes without saying that I am often not even in a Party with the others in Vent. Thus, in-game content is irrelevant! Is this style of play an outlier? I doubt it. Almost all of the age 30+ WoW players in my RL acquaintance play this way. We didn’t always play this way; but, certainly by the end of TBC, this is how we play.
Regarding your third point, WoW’s LFG tool fails because so many experienced players play as I do. Therefore, every negative PUG experience inflicted by LFG is written off as futher “proof” that LFG is the haven of nubs and social outcasts. Why use a public channel when you need to group? Because you can check gear level, guild, and reputation before agreeing to the group. (In guild chat, “Anyone ever group with ‘EatMyGritz’ before?” “Yeah. He is OK. Just don’t let him lead, and he doesn’t use Omen so save a Taunt early.”).
Incidentally, we use LFG to fill-out a largely in-guild dungeon run. We provide the tank and healer, and allow LFG to fill any vacant DPS slots. As time in an expansion goes on, there are fewer of these free DPS slots as we can incorporate alts to fill just about any slot. Therefore, any vacant slots are exclusively due to a complete lack of in-guild interest in running an instance.
BTW, the ability to group with RL friends and family is what sets WoW apart from all the other MMOs. It has achieved sufficient “mass” for you to reliably play in the manner I describe.
Hey MtnSloth
I think many can recognize themselves in your story. I will also myself often be in channels (either chat or on VT) with friends regardless of what charcter I am on or what I am doing. I think you are simply here mixing grouping with socializing.
Your point about socializing happening also outside grouping (and in such, a decline in grouping doesnt mean that MMOs are less social) is very valid. The argument however was stirred by the fact that very often the game dont give incentives for me (or you) to group up with the very friends that you would otherwise socialize with.